
The French director Olivier Assayas always gives great interviews so I wanted to make sure I presented the mostly-full text of my conversation with him when he was in Toronto to promote Carlos, his inordinately lengthy yet consistently enthralling portrait of the terrorist otherwise known as Carlos the Jackal. More of my thoughts on Assayas’ new film can be found in my Eye Weekly feature.
Carlos runs five-and-a-half hours in its full version, which definitely makes it a cinematic rarity. That can also be attractive to some cinephiles – there’s certainly a special degree of veneration for very long films like Bela Tarr’s Satantango or many of Jacques Rivette’s films. Did you have those at all in mind when you were making the film?
I struggled against the length. Ultimately, this is a very long film because I had no idea how to do it shorter. To tell the story the way I wanted to, the approach had to be very precise. So when you start describing the events leading to the rue Toullier shootout [the three murders in 1975 for which Carlos was eventually tried and convicted in France] in a certain level of detail, you basically have to keep the same style. You can’t shift gears all of a sudden. So this initial idea about how I had to tell the story dragged me much further than I would’ve expected. It kind of grew on its own.
Also, what I had in mind was not Bela Tarr, who I admire, or Rivette. To me, it was more like movies like Ludwig by Luchino Visconti or Ingmar Bergman’s Fanny and Alexander – movies that are narrative films but whose scope and whose frame work are just bigger than what cinema audiences are used to. It’s like when you watch the full version of Fanny and Alexander, it’s faster and more efficient than the short version. Ultimately it’s not a TV movie — it’s something you want to see on the big screen because that’s where it spreads its wings.
So it was the existence of movies like that in the back of my mind which made it possible to approach Carlos as a movie that has an energy in its narration, and with a pace that is not exactly the pace of movies like Satantango or anything Rivette did. You have two approaches to lengthen cinema. Either it’s this kind of floating, hypnotic thing which kind of swallows you in or — if you’re going for the novelistic approach — it’s the sheer density of the story you’re telling that drives it. But then if you choose that route, you have to be twice as fast! Because of the length, your audience is much more impatient — it needs the energy and that energy needs to be revitalized once in a while.
Obviously Carlos has its languors and pauses but you’re right in that those moments are usually followed by something even more intense than what’s come before.
Exactly. That’s true even in terms of style — with some movies, you end up finding what will be the right note. Here I have to use all the notes. You have to use all of the tricks in the book. You have to be both highbrow and lowbrow, you have to be entertaining and ambitious — you’re playing on every single level the same time.
When producer Daniel Leconte approached you to do this, did you realize quite quickly this needed to be more than one film?
The initial approach which Daniel Leconte brought to me was something we instantly dropped because it was flawed — it did not work. He really did not have the concept to do something about Carlos — he was using the myth of Carlos as some kind of background. But once I somehow suggested that the right approach to tell the story was to tell Carlos’ story from the point of view of Carlos, he agreed.
When I started working, it was very obvious that this was going to be a long film. So it was not so much a matter of gaining support from the producer because he is a TV guy. TV guys don’t function the same way as film producers. For TV guys, they sell their product to the TV channels. They sell for 100, which means they can make it for 75 and pocket 25 and that’s the whole of the economy of TV. So ultimately they don’t have the power of decision — it’s the guys from the channels who do. So in this case, [we could do this because of] the support we had from Canal Plus. It was those guys who said, “OK, we’re buying two… OK, we’re buying three and we understand why you need the space and we cross our fingers and trust you.”
To me, this was a film all the way. At the same time, I also knew because of the format that it was impossible to sell to a movie producer – there wouldn’t be any way to raise financing. If you went to a movie producer and said you are making an extraordinarily long film with no stars and that was hardly in French, they’re going to laugh in your face. It’s technically impossible. Whereas with exactly the same screenplay, the same elements, you could go to somebody at a TV channel and say, “We’ll cut it three and you can show it in three parts.” It’s really interesting how one thing in one medium seems demented but not in another medium — it can be exactly the same piece of work and yet it fits in the framework.
Was it always part of your approach to maintain such a strict focus on the present tense? It’s an unusual quality for a biopic, given how this kind of film typically employs the benefit of hindsight to clean up the messy contents of life as it’s lived in the moment.
That was all my approach. Specifically, when you are dealing with real events, you shouldn’t deal with them as if you knew where they are heading. You have to keep the unpredictability of events. Like when I was shooting the scene in Rue Toullier — for some reason, I wanted to stay convinced that it could have taken a different turn. The suspense has to do with the level of uncertainty you give to the situation. Something is growing, and you don’t know exactly what it is. You don’t know what direction it’s going to go. And somehow it stays open until something happens and there’s no going back. I tried to be constantly focused on the present, on the actions, on the facts.
It’s interesting because you can really feel how Carlos is making decisions on the fly here, often with very limited knowledge and with results he couldn’t have predicted.
That’s what is interesting. There’s hardly any screen-writing in this film — it’s all about reproducing events as they happen. You have to make decisions on the spot, based on a reality you are not completely aware of but then you have to respond to instantly. Sometimes it’s the right decision, sometimes it’s completely wrong.
There’s so much stuff in the film like that. When I was writing, I was amazed at how [certain situations] got out of control or how they went in specific directions. It would’ve been impossible to make that stuff up. If I had written a screenplay with that kind of logic, it would’ve been perceived as extraordinarily weird. But it’s actual history.
It must’ve been a great benefit to you that Carlos is the most active possible protagonist. He’s like the proverbial shark who dies if it ever stops swimming.
He is not a thinker, he is not a leader, he is not a theoretician or a writer. He is a guy who sometimes gets things done. Sometimes he fails – most often he fails! But he is a soldier, a warrior — he is someone who executes orders, who is the military commander of specific operations.
As well as someone who appears to have fairly dubious improvisational skills.
Of course. It’s basic things in strategy. You initiate an action to get to this or that point but ultimately because you get things moving, you have no idea what the consequences will be. You have to constantly have in mind that everything can fall in the wrong direction, that you can somehow get something going yet arrive at a result that is absolutely the opposite of what you aimed for. There is no absolute logic to action — action is impulsive. It stays unpredictable.
Given how active he is, it’s not so surprising that he himself changes so much during the course of the story told here. How did the version(s) of Carlos you discovered through making the film compare with your initial take on the man?
I learned about him while I was writing and while I was shooting. I didn’t want to start with any kind of preconceived idea. I trusted the facts as much as I could. I had no agenda. I knew I could focus on the facts with a certain degree of precision and that if I looked at specific moments in Carlos, I could deal with the fact that he is a different person at different ages. He’s one person as a young man, different when he’s middle-aged, different when he’s middle-aged, and someone else again when he’s left in the margins of history. Whatever Carlos is, he’s the combination of all those moments — he’s not one thing that could be simply defined.
The degree of vanity and narcissism also becomes very clear.
There is this Latin macho thing that is very strong with him. Plus, he’s incredibly image conscious. He’s the one terrorist of his time who had such a strong notion of his image. He’s also an actor in his own way. When he prepares for the OPEC operation, he puts on a disguise. All of a sudden, he tries to look like some kind of cut-rate Che Guevara. But he’s never looked like that before and he will never look like that afterward – it’s a costume for that specific operation. And it’s really striking how he remodels his image throughout his life.
That adds to the tragic aspect of the final part – it’s as if he is trying to find a new image that would make him relevant again and he just can’t figure it out.
That’s because his space has been shrinking. His space constantly shrinks and shrinks and shrinks until he’s cornered in Khartoum. What do you do in Khartoum? What’s your relevance? You’re a has-been terrorist living in some backwater. You’re hunted by every single Secret Service in the world. What is your relevance? How can you be active? What is your job? What do you do every day when you wake up? It’s kind of pathetic.
And by that last stage, he’s so pathetic, you have to wonder whether he had any kind of ideology in the first place.
Yes, yes, but in that sense, there’s something fairly universal about him in terms of the history of his generation. I just imagine someone who was a radical in the ‘70s, and then who in the ‘90s heads an advertising agency! It’s the same person, and he still has the same ideals in the sense that you could still talk revolution with him. But of course his actions suggest something else.
Did you also want to show how Carlos’ historical moment had passed?
He’s a creature from the cold war. Once the cold war is finished and he realizes he’s on the losing side, it’s over for him.
I’m not sure if you’ve been criticized of this at all but were you worried that people would think you were glorifying Carlos at all? He can be a very charismatic figure.
There’s a very simple answer to this, which is that it’s part of him and part of the narrative. You can’t shy away from it. If he was not charismatic, he would not be Carlos. Yet he is not charismatic all of the time. He is charismatic at specific moments when the real-life Carlos was actually charismatic. When he’s just a fat drunk in Khartoum, he’s not exactly glamorous. He’s interesting, but he’s pathetic.
Indeed, he’s almost a comic figure by this point, what with his obsession with plastic surgery and his frantic efforts to avoid capture while recovering from surgery on his testicles.
Yes, yes. There was always a sense of a comedic element to it, to the film. That’s all in the real story too. In the last part, it’s like a twilight of the gods!
When you were beginning the project, were you worried that you wouldn’t find an actor who could really play the part? Besides Edgar Ramirez, there couldn’t have been many actors who could have even spoken all the necessary languages.
Edgar is amazing. We were extraordinarily lucky to find him because there were so many prerequisites. We had to find someone who’s fluent in a minimum of three different languages and who speaks Spanish with the specific Venezuelan accent. He had to have the same build as Carlos and have the physicality of Carlos — otherwise it’s not Carlos. And you need someone who’s the right age, because the movie takes him from his mid-20s to his mid-forties and he has to be believable at both ends. I thought we would never find the right guy. What was miraculous was that we found Edgar extremely early in the process. Of course, if you look into it, how many actors from Venezuela can be Carlos? One. I’ve always said Edgar is number one in a list of one!
But that’s not the miracle — the miracle is he’s a great actor. He’s way better and smarter and more profound than anything I could’ve dreamed of. He just makes the whole character take off. He’s doing something extraordinarily difficult. I can’t think of a French actor who could have done this. It’s really hard to imagine who except for Edgar could have pulled this off. And we functioned in such extraordinarily difficult conditions. This is not exactly Hollywood — it was really brutal at times and difficult. It was like a war every single day getting this film done. It involved very little comfort for the actors. It’s not like he had a limousine picking him up in the morning. He didn’t have a trailer on the set every day. It was not that kind of filmmaking at all. You need someone who has this star quality but who is at this stage in his career where he is ready to make serious sacrifices and have the generosity to be involved in something for so long and something so difficult.
I also have to ask how you came to use so many songs by Wire – their music is such an unconventional (and non-period) choice and yet it fits in so well.
It was not my initial approach. Actually, I was using songs by the Feelies. There is still one at the beginning of the film. The music fitted in really well so I ended up using a lot of their tracks. Then, at the last minute, the woman who was handling their rights contacted us saying, “Well, I know we’ve been negotiating this for two months, but we have a problem — the guys in the band have discussed this and they don’t want their music associated with terrorism.” I said, “What do you mean? You can’t be serious.” But she was serious. It was such a problem. We ended up managing to keep one song for a scene that did not involve any kind of terroristic activity. But I had to completely reinvent the whole score.
Actually, it had taken me a while to figure out that this film needed that kind of music. It was really a process of trial and error. I thought it really would have a hard time finding something instead of the Feelies’ music, but really quickly, I realized that the stuff Wire was doing in the ‘80s would be the better equivalent. Eventually it took things a step further.
And did the members of Wire have any issues with having their music associated with terrorism?
Zero!